Ok - so, is there any chance that the Doctor could happen across another timelord who hasn't been killed yet because this other timelord hasn't gotten to that point in his/her life yet? I mean, it seems that the timelords all have pretty strict personal timelines, do all their timelines also run parallel to each other altogether? If that was the case, then the doctor couldn't do that, right?
It's a really funky situation. The Doctor HAS crossed his own timeline in the old series, but that was generally controlled from Gallifrey. It could theoretically still happen, but if it did he couldn't change his past.
As for other timelords, the Doctor apparently would be able to hear their presence in his head... so it would take some fancy technobabble to pull it off. On the other hand, Romana, one of his former companions and a timelord, might still be in a place called E-space which is fairly totally cut off from our reality. But she doesn't have a TARDIS.
I'd like to point out that the show has a habit of dragging everything back from the dead. Look at what they did with the Daleks. I was arguing from the end of Season 2 that the timelords would certainly come back, probably with the aid of the Master (evil Time Lord, nasty habit of coming back from the dead. I mean REALLY. In the old series he survived more things that should have killed him permanently than any character including the Doctor. Last we saw him, he got sucked into the Eye of Harmony - a black hole that was, at that point, part of the TARDIS, though it used to be kept on Gallifrey.) And I still maintain that it has to happen eventually.
So that means you've probably run into one or two things you didn't want to see....
Anyway. I strongly suggest watching a bit of the old school, especially before getting deep into the third season. Sarah Jane is a beautiful, beautiful girl. In my terms for beautiful, which means she's smart and snarky! (Though that applies to Liz Shaw too. But then she is also beautiful.) Four is SO gorgeous, for a bunch of inarticulate reasons besides his gorgeous voice. I have a lot of affection for all of the doctors except Six, though.
Of course, you'll get just as hooked on Old School, just to warn you... And a lot of it is on Netflix instant......
Bear in mind that crossing your own timeline is also against the law. And since it is the First Law of Time, it is presumably in the eyes of the Timelords a more severe offense than genocide, which is only Article 7 of Gallifreyan Law.
Given that we know that the Timelords are about as Apollonian as you get and law-abiding to a tee, the only people you would expect to muck around with the first law are the criminally insane: Berusa, Omega, Saliavan, the Master, the Doctor...
Admittedly, the only person we know to have ever intentionally done so is Berusa. I'm excluding The Three Doctors because people do crazy crazy things when their world faces total annihilation.
Also, the Doctor has a lot of First Law violations mainly because he moves around so much. And can't steer. And the TARDIS has kind of a perverse sense of humor. All three of these are virtually unique in Timelord society as whole (or so we are led to believe). They tend to stay put, not work with second rate equipment, and be very smug all of the time. So even if they were so inclined, the opportunity would simply not arise.
You amuse me with your detailed memory of Gallifreyan legal code.
I almost jumped all over you with the Three Doctors, then I read on and saw your exclusion.
I love the fact that the ship's sense of humor and the Time Lords' smugness play such an important role. Also, I have some theories about that, and how the Doctor came to steal her in the first place.
The TARDIS is a very underappreciated character. I probably owe the old girl an apology for my quip about "second-rate equipment." :)
You forget madam I watched this show constantly for 20 years of my life. And then I married an attorney! In spite of all, though, we don't really see too much of the Gallifreyan legal system. What are the 2nd and 3rd laws of time? What are the first six articles, which apparently rank above Genocide? What does the president actually do? When he's not looking for the Eye of Harmony, that is.
And this is significantly all different from "The Worshipful and Ancient Law of Gallifrey." Although that, it can be argued, is simply not substantive.
Actually... exactly how does Shada work? Does it remove you from time in both directions? You would think it would have to in order to be effective... hunh.
As I understand it, Shada exists in the ancient past. It may be the reason it is difficult to find is just because it's so long ago. Now goodness knows why the Time Lords would think the beginning of things is the safest, but maybe it's because that's when there's nobody around with enough technology to help you get out?
Hah ha ha The Worshipful and Ancient Law of Gallifrey....
Ah, I do tend to forget the attorney bit. But regardless, you amuse me.
As for the TARDIS, you'd better apologize to her, like Jo Grant.
Exactly - that's a good point. (on the other hand, one might argue that it is the most important freedom guaranteed by the constitution, upon which all others are based. One might.)
You know, you're probably right about enjoying paperwork. Timelords. What the heck.
Riiiiiight - Father's day! Those things! That was...weird.
Precisely. Now why would it be the most important thing yet not the greatest criminal offense? Simple: there is every chance that you destroy fairly little but yourself. If you break the first law of time travel, you may not mess much up, but you probably won't really get a chance to fix the problem. Unless you have the brunt of Gallifreyan technology on your side, which they will only do in emergency. Note that Borusa broke the law as it applied to someone else.
"Galactic ticket inspectors"
Now the Father's Day things didn't come by just because the Doctor and Rose saw themselves - they were directly tied to the fact that Pete was saved. It was worse because of the paradox. But when the Doctor and Rose saw themselves, they just cleanly disappeared, alone.
Yeah...I think I'm in love with Patrick Troughton. He's always been my favorite. Things shift around somewhat, but that's the equilibrium :)
I'd have to say my current ranking is probably close to:
2, 9, 3, 1, 4, 8, 5, 6, 7, 10
Although I've only seen about three Tennant episodes, so my opinion there is skewed. As for the Master, I want to go...
1, (3.9?), 4, 1.75, 1.5, 2, 3
Companions are a lot harder to rank, but I think that (for me) the Brig, Jamie, Benton, Liz Shaw, Ian, and Romana I cluster around the top and Peri, Rose, and Susan cluster around the bottom.
WATCH MORE TENNANT! Seriously, he's good fun, especially when you compare/contrast to Four and Two.
I have trouble with my rankings. They shift SO much. I tend to have major three-way ties, like for a while there when I first saw The Mind Robber I was in equal admiration of 2, 4 and 10. Currently?
Well, my adoration of 10 was WAY up there for a while (leading to me watching rather a lot of other Tennant work), but it settled between seasons and Tom took over. The obsession with 4 has gone down a bit and the discomfort with 1 has faded. I like 3 a lot more than I used to (no surprise since I think he's the only old series Doctor of whom I've seen more than 75%), and still have the same pale fondness of 5(second after 3 for percentages). Little has changed on the Troughton front, so he's a bit behind 10 and 4 after their respective spikes. I don't know why, but Eccleston just... doesn't quite do it for me. The only difference between the way 9 and 10 treat people is that 10 notices when he does things wrong and apologizes, and 10 is more gleeful and gregarious. 7 used to be one I really liked, but I haven't watched more than 4 episodes of him, so he's fallen behind. 8 gets forgiven for only being in the movie because he pulled off terrible lines well, plus he was fun in the remake of Shada and McGann hugging a Dalek is beyond adorable. 6 is a null point, I have never watched him, the clips I've seen irked me and Peri is frightening.
So - no commas means a tie. 4, 10 2 3, 1, 5 7 8 9, 6
As for Masters, how do you know about 3.9 and 4?! I appreciate your system and agree, except I kind of liked Ainley... And it really is too bad that 1.5 wasn't so great because The Deadly Assassin is one of my favorite eps. Oh and by the way? The circumstances surrounding 4 piss me off no end, but he's pretty fantastic.
As for companions... if they're female, smart and saucy, I love them. So Sarah Jane, Romana I and Liz Shaw top the list, followed by Barbara (she was annoyingly meek on occasion), followed by Ace. And then there's Benton because he's awesome. I continue to maintain that Rose irks the heck out of me, but I love what she does to the Doctor.
Yeah, I know, I should watch more Tennant. He still reminds me of an unflattering cross between 3 and 6.
I've seen just the Derek Jacoby episode. And fortunately with my sister and dad, such that the three of us predicted it half way through and spent the second half of the episode screaming. Cha It was pretty awesome Tho.
No love for Christopher Ecclestone, I see. It must be the ears :(
YOU should watch more (read: some) Colin Baker. He will probably still stay bottom of your list (because he's obnoxious), and Peri is pretty ghastly. But he's got a couple of great episodes. (and a couple of truly ghastly episodes: avoid Vengeance on Varos like the plague). But "Mark of the Rani" is awesome, and so is "The Two Doctors" - and not just because the other one is Patrick Troughton. "Timelash" is also fun. I will admit that 6 is probably the midlife crisis doctor, but that's a perfectly normal reaction to having been 5 right up to that point ("and your voice goes all squeeky when you shout!")
I should see the remake of Shada. That was the thing about the movie - it was truly ghastly, but I loved McGann. He's so far down the list mainly because of scarcity.
I should rewatch the Deadly Assassin. Man that's a creepy episode.
I mainly dislike Ainley vis a vis Delgado. He tends to come off as pretty whiney. Although...well, watch Mark of the Rani, and that's all I'm going to say.
Ace and Sarah Jane are certainly high on the list too - I kinda felt bad leaving them out. As you say, rankings are hard. Barbara's good - have you seen the Romans yet? Barbara's good, Ian is good, but Ian&Barbara is really much better than either.
...and Benton is awesome. Yates is a wet towel though.
Well, Tennant has enough of my habits and mannerisms that we can blame my narcissism.
Derek Jacoby is wonderful. Utopia in general is wonderful, possibly my favorite bit of Series 3. The Sound of Drums brings me almost as much joy as discomfort and The Last of the Time Lords hurts my brain. (Oh my sweet Tinkerbell Jesus it does!) But Simm's okay. Good actor, bad writing, it evens out.
Nothing to do with the ears - he's just too hard, too shell shocked. Though Dalek was beautiful.
Maybe. MAYBE I'll watch it someday. But not until I've watched everything else.
There's just something about the 8th Doctor... besides being awfully pretty that is.
The Doctor is my favorite action hero! And I adore Bernard Horsfall almost as much as Tom Baker.
Well, my first encounters with Ainley were before I saw Delgado, particularly The King's Demons - where he totally beats the Doctor in terms of awesome, I have to say.
I counted Barbara! I just had to explain why she ranks below the top.
Dalek was beautiful. Haven't seen the other two parts after Utopia, I'm afraid.
If it's The King's Daemons then you're forgiven :) And seriously, see Mark of the Rani, and maybe the Two Doctors and Timelash. Don't hide forever! And if you never watch Trial of a Time Lord you won't get to see whether or not the Doctor violates Article 7 of Gallifreyan Law! Have I ever steered you wrong before?
I'll hide at least until I've seen EVERYTHING ELSE. Like I said. There's plenty of good stuff left that I haven't seen that in no way touches on Peri.
Bernard Horsfall plays Lemuel Gulliver, one of the Time Lords at the 2nd Doctor's trial, the Thal captain in Planet of the Daleks, and Chancellor Goth. He's my favorite extra.
Benton deserves a girlfriend, though he did flirt a bit with Sarah Jane - but I think that was hopeless from the start.
Aaaaaaah yes. Him! I didn't recognize the name, but certainly remember the actor. Except that I didn't realize he was also a Thal! Awesome.
Benton does deserve a girlfriend - but he's far too duty conscious. And all the girls perfer Mike anyway - RHIP. Although - he does dance with a long-haired hippy contortionist brilliant scientist at the engagement party in "The Green Death." Maybe they keep in touch, and get together after he leaves the military to become a used car salesman. (That last is canon, but I don't buy it - not Benton.)
Yes, I know Peri is a major turn-off - but how can you resist the prospect of Jamie? In color? You can't, that's how. Nyaaah.
Y'know.... Benton's haircut does look like a used car salesman. Anyway, he was a Sergeant - a non-com. If he had wanted to stick around in UNIT and gain decent rank, he'd have had to get a commission, and maybe he didn't want to go through that. But I bet he's still got connections with them, in some form. (Sarah Jane does... even if it hasn't been mentioned in the main show yet.)(She's supposed to show up *somewhere* in this season.)(I hope we get to see Luke with her! He's so cool!)(A kid from Sarah Jane Adventures. He's awesome.)
I've seen plenty of pictures of Jamie in color. I can wait.
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timeasmymeasure
no subject
Date: 2008-05-02 02:42 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-05-02 03:30 am (UTC)As for other timelords, the Doctor apparently would be able to hear their presence in his head... so it would take some fancy technobabble to pull it off. On the other hand, Romana, one of his former companions and a timelord, might still be in a place called E-space which is fairly totally cut off from our reality. But she doesn't have a TARDIS.
I'd like to point out that the show has a habit of dragging everything back from the dead. Look at what they did with the Daleks. I was arguing from the end of Season 2 that the timelords would certainly come back, probably with the aid of the Master (evil Time Lord, nasty habit of coming back from the dead. I mean REALLY. In the old series he survived more things that should have killed him permanently than any character including the Doctor. Last we saw him, he got sucked into the Eye of Harmony - a black hole that was, at that point, part of the TARDIS, though it used to be kept on Gallifrey.) And I still maintain that it has to happen eventually.
no subject
Date: 2008-05-02 04:18 am (UTC)WORD!
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Date: 2008-05-02 05:26 am (UTC)...so in the process of reading up in wikipedia, have you managed to avoid spoilers?
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Date: 2008-05-02 05:37 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-05-02 07:05 am (UTC)Anyway. I strongly suggest watching a bit of the old school, especially before getting deep into the third season. Sarah Jane is a beautiful, beautiful girl. In my terms for beautiful, which means she's smart and snarky! (Though that applies to Liz Shaw too. But then she is also beautiful.) Four is SO gorgeous, for a bunch of inarticulate reasons besides his gorgeous voice. I have a lot of affection for all of the doctors except Six, though.
Of course, you'll get just as hooked on Old School, just to warn you... And a lot of it is on Netflix instant......
no subject
Date: 2008-05-02 04:34 pm (UTC)Given that we know that the Timelords are about as Apollonian as you get and law-abiding to a tee, the only people you would expect to muck around with the first law are the criminally insane: Berusa, Omega, Saliavan, the Master, the Doctor...
Admittedly, the only person we know to have ever intentionally done so is Berusa. I'm excluding The Three Doctors because people do crazy crazy things when their world faces total annihilation.
Also, the Doctor has a lot of First Law violations mainly because he moves around so much. And can't steer. And the TARDIS has kind of a perverse sense of humor. All three of these are virtually unique in Timelord society as whole (or so we are led to believe). They tend to stay put, not work with second rate equipment, and be very smug all of the time. So even if they were so inclined, the opportunity would simply not arise.
no subject
Date: 2008-05-02 05:30 pm (UTC)I almost jumped all over you with the Three Doctors, then I read on and saw your exclusion.
I love the fact that the ship's sense of humor and the Time Lords' smugness play such an important role. Also, I have some theories about that, and how the Doctor came to steal her in the first place.
no subject
Date: 2008-05-02 06:44 pm (UTC)You forget madam I watched this show constantly for 20 years of my life. And then I married an attorney! In spite of all, though, we don't really see too much of the Gallifreyan legal system. What are the 2nd and 3rd laws of time? What are the first six articles, which apparently rank above Genocide? What does the president actually do? When he's not looking for the Eye of Harmony, that is.
And this is significantly all different from "The Worshipful and Ancient Law of Gallifrey." Although that, it can be argued, is simply not substantive.
Actually... exactly how does Shada work? Does it remove you from time in both directions? You would think it would have to in order to be effective... hunh.
no subject
Date: 2008-05-02 07:46 pm (UTC)Hah ha ha The Worshipful and Ancient Law of Gallifrey....
Ah, I do tend to forget the attorney bit. But regardless, you amuse me.
As for the TARDIS, you'd better apologize to her, like Jo Grant.
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Date: 2008-05-02 08:38 pm (UTC)Timelords are silly.
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Date: 2008-05-03 06:04 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-05-03 10:48 pm (UTC)I suspect that it's worse than genocide because it makes the paperwork much much harder. But that's just me being cynical about the timelords.
And I of course can't prove that it's a worse offense - the numbering just seemed...curious.
Is it worse to die or to never have existed? Hard to say...
no subject
Date: 2008-05-04 01:22 am (UTC)...you know, they always strike me as the kind of people who enjoy paperwork.
If you cross your personal timeline without Gallefreyan control, though, the weird floating reaper creatures might eat the whole dimension.
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Date: 2008-05-05 01:13 pm (UTC)You know, you're probably right about enjoying paperwork. Timelords. What the heck.
Riiiiiight - Father's day! Those things! That was...weird.
no subject
Date: 2008-05-05 07:21 pm (UTC)"Galactic ticket inspectors"
Now the Father's Day things didn't come by just because the Doctor and Rose saw themselves - they were directly tied to the fact that Pete was saved. It was worse because of the paradox. But when the Doctor and Rose saw themselves, they just cleanly disappeared, alone.
no subject
Date: 2008-05-02 03:56 am (UTC)http://www.youtube.com/v/VWCqhFqmPbc&hl=en
no subject
Date: 2008-05-02 05:25 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-05-02 02:27 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-05-02 04:37 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-05-02 05:25 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-05-02 04:37 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-05-02 05:25 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-05-02 06:22 pm (UTC)I'd have to say my current ranking is probably close to:
2, 9, 3, 1, 4, 8, 5, 6, 7, 10
Although I've only seen about three Tennant episodes, so my opinion there is skewed. As for the Master, I want to go...
1, (3.9?), 4, 1.75, 1.5, 2, 3
Companions are a lot harder to rank, but I think that (for me) the Brig, Jamie, Benton, Liz Shaw, Ian, and Romana I cluster around the top and Peri, Rose, and Susan cluster around the bottom.
no subject
Date: 2008-05-02 07:38 pm (UTC)I have trouble with my rankings. They shift SO much. I tend to have major three-way ties, like for a while there when I first saw The Mind Robber I was in equal admiration of 2, 4 and 10. Currently?
Well, my adoration of 10 was WAY up there for a while (leading to me watching rather a lot of other Tennant work), but it settled between seasons and Tom took over. The obsession with 4 has gone down a bit and the discomfort with 1 has faded. I like 3 a lot more than I used to (no surprise since I think he's the only old series Doctor of whom I've seen more than 75%), and still have the same pale fondness of 5(second after 3 for percentages). Little has changed on the Troughton front, so he's a bit behind 10 and 4 after their respective spikes. I don't know why, but Eccleston just... doesn't quite do it for me. The only difference between the way 9 and 10 treat people is that 10 notices when he does things wrong and apologizes, and 10 is more gleeful and gregarious. 7 used to be one I really liked, but I haven't watched more than 4 episodes of him, so he's fallen behind. 8 gets forgiven for only being in the movie because he pulled off terrible lines well, plus he was fun in the remake of Shada and McGann hugging a Dalek is beyond adorable. 6 is a null point, I have never watched him, the clips I've seen irked me and Peri is frightening.
So - no commas means a tie. 4, 10 2 3, 1, 5 7 8 9, 6
As for Masters, how do you know about 3.9 and 4?! I appreciate your system and agree, except I kind of liked Ainley... And it really is too bad that 1.5 wasn't so great because The Deadly Assassin is one of my favorite eps. Oh and by the way? The circumstances surrounding 4 piss me off no end, but he's pretty fantastic.
As for companions... if they're female, smart and saucy, I love them. So Sarah Jane, Romana I and Liz Shaw top the list, followed by Barbara (she was annoyingly meek on occasion), followed by Ace. And then there's Benton because he's awesome. I continue to maintain that Rose irks the heck out of me, but I love what she does to the Doctor.
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Date: 2008-05-02 09:03 pm (UTC)I've seen just the Derek Jacoby episode. And fortunately with my sister and dad, such that the three of us predicted it half way through and spent the second half of the episode screaming. Cha It was pretty awesome Tho.
No love for Christopher Ecclestone, I see. It must be the ears :(
YOU should watch more (read: some) Colin Baker. He will probably still stay bottom of your list (because he's obnoxious), and Peri is pretty ghastly. But he's got a couple of great episodes. (and a couple of truly ghastly episodes: avoid Vengeance on Varos like the plague). But "Mark of the Rani" is awesome, and so is "The Two Doctors" - and not just because the other one is Patrick Troughton. "Timelash" is also fun. I will admit that 6 is probably the midlife crisis doctor, but that's a perfectly normal reaction to having been 5 right up to that point ("and your voice goes all squeeky when you shout!")
I should see the remake of Shada. That was the thing about the movie - it was truly ghastly, but I loved McGann. He's so far down the list mainly because of scarcity.
I should rewatch the Deadly Assassin. Man that's a creepy episode.
I mainly dislike Ainley vis a vis Delgado. He tends to come off as pretty whiney. Although...well, watch Mark of the Rani, and that's all I'm going to say.
Ace and Sarah Jane are certainly high on the list too - I kinda felt bad leaving them out. As you say, rankings are hard. Barbara's good - have you seen the Romans yet? Barbara's good, Ian is good, but Ian&Barbara is really much better than either.
...and Benton is awesome. Yates is a wet towel though.
no subject
Date: 2008-05-02 09:48 pm (UTC)Derek Jacoby is wonderful. Utopia in general is wonderful, possibly my favorite bit of Series 3. The Sound of Drums brings me almost as much joy as discomfort and The Last of the Time Lords hurts my brain. (Oh my sweet Tinkerbell Jesus it does!) But Simm's okay. Good actor, bad writing, it evens out.
Nothing to do with the ears - he's just too hard, too shell shocked. Though Dalek was beautiful.
Maybe. MAYBE I'll watch it someday. But not until I've watched everything else.
There's just something about the 8th Doctor... besides being awfully pretty that is.
The Doctor is my favorite action hero! And I adore Bernard Horsfall almost as much as Tom Baker.
Well, my first encounters with Ainley were before I saw Delgado, particularly The King's Demons - where he totally beats the Doctor in terms of awesome, I have to say.
I counted Barbara! I just had to explain why she ranks below the top.
We love Benton. *grins*
no subject
Date: 2008-05-03 10:53 pm (UTC)If it's The King's Daemons then you're forgiven :) And seriously, see Mark of the Rani, and maybe the Two Doctors and Timelash. Don't hide forever! And if you never watch Trial of a Time Lord you won't get to see whether or not the Doctor violates Article 7 of Gallifreyan Law! Have I ever steered you wrong before?
Who is Bernard Horsfall?
We does love Benton.
no subject
Date: 2008-05-04 01:18 am (UTC)Bernard Horsfall plays Lemuel Gulliver, one of the Time Lords at the 2nd Doctor's trial, the Thal captain in Planet of the Daleks, and Chancellor Goth. He's my favorite extra.
Benton deserves a girlfriend, though he did flirt a bit with Sarah Jane - but I think that was hopeless from the start.
no subject
Date: 2008-05-05 01:09 pm (UTC)Benton does deserve a girlfriend - but he's far too duty conscious. And all the girls perfer Mike anyway - RHIP. Although - he does dance with a long-haired hippy contortionist brilliant scientist at the engagement party in "The Green Death." Maybe they keep in touch, and get together after he leaves the military to become a used car salesman. (That last is canon, but I don't buy it - not Benton.)
Yes, I know Peri is a major turn-off - but how can you resist the prospect of Jamie? In color? You can't, that's how. Nyaaah.
no subject
Date: 2008-05-05 07:27 pm (UTC)I've seen plenty of pictures of Jamie in color. I can wait.